They Said That? 5/3/17

It is the height of egotism to quote one’s self in the quote of the day, but guilty as charged and here goes. This is a comment and response to today’s SLL article by Robert Gore, “The Magnificent Eleven,” from The Burning Platform, where the article was also posted.

From TBP commentor Dolphin:

R. G.:

You left out the parts about the “robber barons”, striking workers being gunned down by hired thugs, sweatshop conditions giving rise to books like “The Jungle”, 72-hour work weeks, Indian genocide, and repeated financial panics in 1873, 1893, and 1907. And while we’re talking about FDR, I’m guessing you think he pursued the policies he did because he was an evil man. The facts that the depression was already in its fourth year, was steadily worsening, and showed no signs of letting up when he took office aren’t a consideration.

And perhaps we should also overlook the fact that the US still had an open frontier in the 19th century, at least once we had shot, hanged, starved, infected with deadly diseases, or otherwise “relocated” its former inhabitants, so land on which to expand was plentiful. And we can conveniently fail to notice that the low-hanging fruit of the industrial revolution was ripe for the plucking and that industrial processes required huge amounts of cheap manpower. Or even cheaper child power, depending on the demands of the industry.

Now I’m no fan of the widespread government, corporate, and financial abuses that abound today. But I know better than to romanticize the era you are describing. Its impressive advances came at a terrible price for a brutally subjugated working class whose every attempt to better their lot was met with officially condoned violence.

More to the point, this isn’t the 19th century. It’s the 21st century. Our population density is nearly ten times what it was in 1870. In 1870, only 1/4 of the population lived in urban areas. Today, 83% of the population is urban. Just look at the 2016 electoral map if you think that urban and rural people don’t put different demands on government services.

In short, get real. If you want to actually contribute something constructive to the conversation, talk about specific steps that can be taken to get us from where we are to where you think we should be. Romanticizing an era that’s a century and a half removed from our own and that in real terms offered most people less opportunity than they have today is disingenuous, and a little pathetic.

Response from Robert Gore:

Dolphin,

America from the Civil War to World War I was far from perfect. It was, however, the best option for the millions who came here. There’s no denying deplorable conditions in slums, some, but not all, factories, and miserable tenant farms, but they were better than conditions from where the immigrants came, or they wouldn’t have come. Before the Industrial Revolution 99.999 percent of humanity lived on the edge of subsistence. You don’t go from widespread poverty to widespread affluence overnight. The period in question raised American real per capita incomes a greater percentage in a shorter time than any period before or since. Go read anything, fiction or nonfiction, written before this time and see if you can find the term “middle class.” It wasn’t until this time that a recognizable middle class emerged, sneeringly refered to by Marx and acolytes as the bourgeois. You say the working man’s “every” attempt to better his situation was met by armed force and violence. While attempts to unionize were sometimes met that way, millions who “resorted” to ambition and hard work bettered their situation.

I’ve read Matthew Josephson’s Robber Barons twice. I’ve also read Burton Folsom’s Myth of the Robber Barons for the other side of the story. Josephson tars everyone with the same brush, and ignores the virtues necessary to start and build innovative and prosperous companies. Yes, there were sweatshops, primarily in minimally profitable industries. John D. Rockefeller’s very profitable Standard Oil was a model of workplace safety, environmental protection (he reused refining byproducts, like gasoline, that other Cleveland refiners were dumping in the Cuyahoga River), paid well, offered his employees stock (many of them became millionaires), and built the world’s biggest and most profitable company. He drove the price of kerosene from 80 to 4 cents a gallon, enabling millions of ordinary people, who formerly couldn’t afford whale oil or kerosene, to stay up past sundown. Would everything he did pass muster by today’s standards? Undoubtedly not; Standard Oil was the impetus for the Sherman Act. The non-romanticized truth about Rockefeller, good and bad, is available in Ron Chernow’s excellent biography, Titan. Whatever his flaws, Rockefeller was a builder, not a thief. The wealth and jobs he created far outweigh whatever you might consider his depredations (although I don’t like what he did politically after he retired).

You mention our shameful history with native Americans. Let me mention another “Robber Baron,” James J. Hill. The slaughter of Native Americans is a blight on our history, but that was done by government, not the “extraordinary ‘ordinary’ people and the giants of the Industrial Revolution” I extoll. Most of the treaties we abrogated were between native Americans and either the federal government or the government-sponsored transcontinental railroads. Hill built the Great Northern railroad, running from Minneapolis to Northwest Pacific Coast. He accepted no land grants or funding from the federal government (he didn’t want the strings) and his railroad was entirely privately funded. He scrupulously observed every agreement and right-of-way he negotiated with various Native American tribes. Railroad building being dangerous work, especially in the Rocky and Cascade Mountains, he offered some of the highest wages available for such labor. The Great Northern was by far the best built line in America during this time, and is still the core of the Burlington Northern, which Warren Buffett scooped up at a bargain price after the financial crisis. The Great Northern was the only railroad of its size to never go bankrupt; all of the government sponsored, crony-socialistic boondoggle railroads did so at least twice. Yet Josephson excoriates Hill for not giving what Josephson considers a “fair” price to a group of Dutch investors when Hill took over the defunct line that Hill built into the Great Northern. Probably not one in a thousand Americans even know who Hill was.

Was Hill a robber baron? Rockefeller? Edison? Bell? Deere? McCormack? Ford? Carnegie? Vanderbilt? The Wright Brothers? If they were, they were a strange kinds of robbers who gave away appreciable portions of their fortunes.

What did FDR ever build? What did he offer to America’s true builders but obstructions? Yes, he took over a nation that had been in the Great Depression for three years. The measures he championed and enacted extended it another seven and set us on the road to ruin. Was FDR evil? “Ye shall know them by their fruits.”

As for population densities, what do they have to do with anything? One of the most remarkable capitalism success stories has been Hong Kong (the PRC will eventually ruin it), and it has one of the highest population densities in the world.

You want something constructive, you want specific steps that can be taken. I’ll tell you want I want, something I’ve never had. I want to take my talents, skills, energy, and willingness to work hard, make my way, keep every dime I earn, and not a dime I don’t. I don’t want to feed, clothe, educate, or in any way contribute to the wellbeing of anyone who demands that I do so because it’s my supposed duty, or their political hencemen and enablers. I will support any measure that reduces taxes or regulations, reduces the size and power of any level of government, and allows people to keep even a little more of their own time and money for themselves. I want my freedom, my inalienable birthright as a human being. And I meant exactly what I said in my last paragraph about anybody who wants to curtail it or take it away.

 

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15 responses to “They Said That? 5/3/17

  1. Pingback: The Magnificent Eleven, by Robert Gore | STRAIGHT LINE LOGIC

  2. Excellent response Robert. The ‘strap hangers’ and ‘free riders’ of society can and do continuously find fault with what the builder of the roads and conveyances wrought, without ever realizing or admitting their own failures to have ever built anything themselves. At best they avoid similar criticisms from their own ‘dolphins’, convincing themselves that lacking such criticisms proves their superiority.

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  3. Pingback: SLL: The Magnificent Eleven, Plus A Response To Someone Captured By The Myth Of Leviathan ‘Saving The Day’ | Western Rifle Shooters Association

  4. You tell him Mr. Gore!
    Right on!
    I’m with you Brother, in particular your closing declaration of Inalienable Birth Rights and keeping the fruits of our labors.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. That the problem, disassociation with them heads, ruled by Kings of which none are philosophers, good Prince. I would trust Genghis Khan more than any of our political lefties of US, fools rules, the right not so much. Swift and sure Just US, perhaps. JJJ 5.4.17

    What is the product of government and what are the means?

    Thomas Payne wrote “Common Sense” making the case for Independence. He addressed the pamphlet to the Inhabitants of America, because there was no United States of America. Independence from monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people. Mr. Payne advocated independence from British rule. He argued men are equal at creation, therefore the distinction between kings and subject are false and more worth is one honest man to society and in the sight of God, than all the crowned ruffians ever lived.

    January 10 1776, “Common Sense” was published and on, or about July 4th 1776 Independence was declared and a distinctly American political identity. In no small way did Mr. Payne contribute to the idea of Liberty and Justice for all. Further, General George Washington had the “American Crisis” authored by Mr. Payne, read aloud to inspire the troops. It began, “These are the times that try men’s souls.”

    That distinctly American political identity is rapidly returning to monarchial and aristocratic tyranny of kings and peers, who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people, these truly are the times that try men’s souls. Needless to say Mr. Payne was outspoken and not everyone agreed with what he had written, so he was latter tried and convicted for seditious libel. But, I think in most of his writings he called attention to the privileged establishments and the not so privileged of the times, or estates. The estates of clergymen, nobles and the commoners was the structure of control, previously the subjects or commoners had no control and suffered at the whim of the other two estates.

    You might say that Mr. Payne was the first Socialist. His advocacy in The Rights of Man for reason over ignorance, end of slavery in other writings and system of government were certainly new ideas and it’s time had come for the end of monarchial and aristocratic tyranny. However, it gives cause to the elites and radical factions and resulted in the Reign of Terror of the French Revolution, but not as much as in the ways of latter Marxist ideas of Lenin. The difference being Payne saw every man as having certain rights and as an individual as oppose monarchial and aristocratic tyranny and to Marx and Lenin socialist idea to the means of production of individuals that needed to be controlled. In large part the Marx and Lenin ideas are not different than monarchial and aristocratic tyranny. It is just tyranny by another name.

    Directly opposed to Mr. Payne’s views in Common Sense is what we see today as Common Cents of socialist and the utopian ideas of Marx, Common Cents being the means to control production and the individual. The ends do justify the means, so the elite and factions, political parties now control all the means of production which is money and limit any possible control by the third estate which are the commoners or subject. In the United States of America that is We the People, or subjects, or commoners whichever you prefer. Little has changed, the elites are the ruling class and bankers are the clergy and subjects are the same. The common cents are the taxes, fees, penalties and interest you must pay to use, or sell your labor. In other words, a percentage of your labor, your means of production must pay tribute to the ruling class and bankers so you can put food on theirs and your tables and have a place to live and so on.

    I make distinction between the new estates or ruling class and bankers because the ruling class is controlled by the banker, which is the new religion, or church of the almighty dollar, which in turn the ruling class controls the commoners or subjects by taking a percentage and making law and regulation. Enter the Fourth Estate, which is the news media, publisher of Mr. Payne’s Pamphlets, but certainly not limited to the news, because they don’t do that anymore. Subliminal messaging and thought control by music, television programs, radio, just ask your doctor and even advertizing direct your daily activity whether you know it or not because there is no Free Shipping.

    Payne, somewhere in his writings said the ruling class should pay the commoners for taking their property (labor and land) and provide a pension, as well when they are old. Today, we call these entitlements. If it were not for the fact that the entitlements benefit the ruling class more, I might agree. At this point everyone thinks entitlement mean Social Security, Medicare, but those have been paid for by the people that have paid into the system and government has spent for other things, which is about 30 % of the national debt, or in other word they have stolen your money and now want you to pay interest on the money they took form you. The entitlements are really government itself which is the permanent ruling class and bankers which by means of Social Security, Medicare, pay role withholding and various other schemes for financing their lifestyle of monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people.

    Enter the Fifth Estate which is education, but not the public school system because they don’t do that anymore either, it is indoctrination. The Fifth Estate are real journalists and bloggers that find whatever means possible to reestablish common sense. They are the reaction to the Fourth Estate not doing its job. As what used to be taught in public schools, subject like science, Newton’s third law of motion, it was learned or should have been, that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, the Fifth Estate is mostly radio and internet reaction to not only the news media, printed press and television, but political factions as well not doing the job they are paid for, or are they?

    As we have seen in both the American and French revolutions, they can work two ways. Either ruling class works for the will of the people or the ruling class works for the will of the ruling class. Because the ruling class that replaced the monarchial and aristocratic tyranny becomes tyrants mostly, subjects soon realize. The Committee for Public Safety in France were tyrants and nothing changed much in or you get a Continental Congress here and for a while it works out OK, until they figure out they can vote themselves a pay raise. Interestingly, because there was no monarchial and aristocratic tyranny at the time in the United States there was no Reign of Terror. However, there are now.

    These are the factions, Democrats, Republicans, liberal, conservatives, red states, blue states, progressives, libertarians, communists and of course the Mickey Mouse Party, Tree House and tree hugger parties and more. All of which believe they have a better way, most often to spend your money. Behind the closed doors and not to be seen are the supporters of the parties, the backers, or banker if you will. So, whatever notion on how to take your property and spend other people’s money has been covered by most of these groups (special interests). Government is the means to do so. The will of the people be damned. It is the will of the party and backers and the bankers that will rule and make bad law and policy. That is what happens when governments find out they can vote themselves a pay raise and take people’s property by making new law to do so.

    The question we started with was, what is the product of government and what are the means of their production? The answer is they have no product and no means of production, in fact everything they have including their office building, transportation they use to get to work, bullets for their bodyguards guns, wages and benefits are taken from someone else. Even the food they eat is paid for by someone else. And, what do they give back to us for allowing them a free meal and in some cases for a lifetime. Not much, except war. I won’t go into the aspects of war being used as population and political control at this time, but keep that in mind. Or, the Marxist ideas of Vladimir Lenin and later Joe Stalin’s Socialist Democratic Labour Party that resulted in millions of dead people that did not agree with him and his party. Or, the establishment of The Socialist Party of America 1901, just before Woodrow Wilson got elected.

    However, the idea of rule of law was born. Not because a man born inherited a kingdom and was made a ruler, the rule of law applied to both common man and the king to some degree, but the idea was born. And, such the new political identity of the new world born too. With that new identify, Liberty and Justice for all was set in motion by the Constitution of the United States of America. A system of government of separated and limited powers with checks and balances to prevent what had previously been the estates of clergy, nobles and commoners from happening here in the new world. For the first hundred years, or so all went pretty well with the help of new world discoveries, such as gold and other minerals, several industrial revolutions and technological advancement all brought about by free enterprise in free markets by free people.

    For the most part government stayed out of business. But, still remained unfair business practices such as slavery, child labor and the like, by corrupt men. However, it must be noted, these practices were imported from other countries that were ruled by monarchial and aristocratic tyranny of kings and peers, who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people and most commoners were little more than slaves as well. Interestingly, Canada and Mexico also kept monarchial and aristocratic tyranny of kings and peers, who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people.

    In 1865 the War Between the States, the civil war, ended slavery officially, but the war was not about slavery, it was about states’ rights. The Federal Government won and ever sense that time, states rights diminished to the point on non-existence. It would take almost another 50 years before the parties, politicians and the banker, elite, or new monarchial and aristocratic tyranny of kings and peers, who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people, but now by rule of law, could take money and property from the commoners, or subjects, which ever you prefer.

    “As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow and the MONEY POWER of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.” – Abraham Lincoln
    “I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world – no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but the Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominated men.” Woodrow Wilson
    “Bank officials swarmed into Washington, D.C. to lobby for the passage of Warburg’s document. This legislation was strongly opposed by Congressman Charles Lindbergh, Sr. of Minnesota. He warned that this document was, in fact, establishing a Central Banking System. His greater concern was the fact that this type of banking system would create recessions, depressions, inflation, boom and bust of the nation’s economy.” He was right.
    On so important an issue, 103 empty Congressional seats meant less opposition to the passage of the Federal Reserve Act. Can you imagine 103 of our elected officials (76 Representatives and 27 Senators) were more concerned about going for their Christmas vacation than saving our country? Many of the Congressmen did not have time to read the entire bill. Many who did make an honest effort to study the legislation found themselves lost in the forest of technical banking vocabulary.
    On December 23, 1913, the Day of Infamy, Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act. Keeping his campaign promise to the bankers, President Woodrow Wilson signed the document which sold our country to private bankers.
    Fast forward past a couple of world wars, the Great Depression, the New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society Jimmy Carters recession, minor ray of hope with Reagan and Bush and Clinton dynasty to Hope and Change. More appropriately put, “hoping for more of your change”. Other than banking, insurance is huge and what better way to get into your pocket than insurance? The Affordable Care Act, passed by a party line vote, which you have to pass the bill to see what is in it, which means they did not read and pretty much did not understand it (Jonny Gruber) and was sold to you by a crooked politicians that said “ You can keep your doctor and you can keep your plan, which was a lie. Truth be known it is not about health care or medical services, it is about the money you give to insurance companies and now they need a bailout. But, this has nothing to do with the billions of dollars that the American people already spend on insurance of all types, or does it?
    If Obama would only admit: “I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world – no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but the Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominated men.” Woodrow Wilson
    Common Cents, they are not. The thought that the monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people that they are owed something simply because they exist is beyond comprehension. The fact they deceive by using terms like the greater good, or the American people have spoken, or the good of the country is false. What it really means is their greater good and the good of their country estate. And, yea the American people have spoken, but they do not listen. Because they know better what is best for them to take a percentage, not because they have contributed something, but because they can.
    The product of government is war. The means of production is deception and lies. The art and science of the nudge, push and shove into a thought process of this is better than that and that is what the American people want! No! As President Lincoln, said and is no different now than it was then. “As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow and the MONEY POWER of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.” – Abraham Lincoln
    The war on poverty, 50 years and 22 trillion dollars later and the poor are still with us at the same rate as 50 years ago, they will always be with us. I wonder how many of the elite have made profit on the backs of poor? The war on Drugs, according to some spends at a rate of 500 dollars per second and still the war rages on, when will it end and whom does it benefit? The war on terror is said to have a real cost of around 5 trillion dollars and all of this because the American people have spoken, I don’t think so. If only politicians the ruling class and banker understood, war is kicking ass and take names later and stay the blank out of it until it is over and no apologies to whoever started it.

    Recently, the war on energy, clean air and water the battle cry and rages on by an out of control agency of government. Junk science of climate change and trading of carbon credits perpetrated by the new monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people with total disregard of the American people that they have benefit so greatly from. It is a war to protect their investment and ensure their place at the top of food chain. High energy price are not cause by a lack of resources, but of envy. And if you question their authority, you are stupid and present a laundry list of credentials to support their claims of I know better then you. There was a time when the public school system taught science and math and with that basic information one learned to question the science, so that is why they don’t teach that anymore.

    Could it be the high cost of energy is because of envy? Renewable and sustainable are the word of the deception, but rather than prove the science, it is dictated and what you will have and what you will not. Could it be that energy from hydrogen (like salt water, which covers most of the earth) is no longer considered a possibility because profit and tax structure is not in place? The science has been around for 100 years. Could it be there is a war on the American people by our own government controlling the very essence of life, air, water and energy by means of fiat money and envy?

    Common cents is the means of control. Lost is common sense in a sea of envy perpetrated by the new monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people. The rule of law no longer applies to the pawns being played. Our rulers and elite would think different if the illegal immigrant, the undocumented alien if the cost was paid by them, but they will not, there is no profit in that, they want the American people to pay for it so they can profit. If it were about compassion they would help the poor where they were at. Instead, the immigrant will be used, to be the servants of the elites, the backer and banker of criminals ruling class and political parties. They will be used to clean toilets at the estates of the elite and manicure their lawns, to cook their supper and wash their dishes, then paid pennies for their labor and expected to pay taxes to the elite.

    It seems strange the US government with all the programs they have used over the last 40 years to destroy the American family to use the argument to reunite illegal and undocumented aliens families. It may seem cold and uncaring, but they would do better to send them back and tell them to follow the laws like everyone else, or is it only for selfish and political reason they refuse to do so? Strange as well, the feeling of law overly applied on black people in MO and that is the reason why they distrust the law?

    There is only one reason why the President should not grant amnesty to anyone that has broken the law. That reason is, the rule of law, not of man! The president took an oath to uphold the law, so if the highest office in the land breaks the law, of what good is it to anyone else? At that point we the American people will become the subjects of monarchial and aristocratic tyranny who ruled by heredity and contribute nothing to the people. Every country has laws of immigration, enforce our laws, but they will not. The ruling elite have total disregard for the law and expect the rest of us to obey. It would seem they are above the law and their will is the law.

    The invasion has started and what is the purpose or this war? Open border that allow undocumented illegal aliens and need I say criminals into this country at a time when half the population is on some kind of government assistants. Is it cheap labor or a new voting base, or new subjects to bow down and praise those that sit on the golden toilet thrones of the ruling class elite? All this goes on while every possible division of activist groups and political party fight for their perverted ideas on what others should think. Yes there is a WAR on the American people, but why?

    That distinctly American political identity “A Republic, if you can keep it”, “These are the times that try men’s souls.” I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.” “I have unwittingly ruined my country”, President Woodrow Wilson signed the document which sold our country to private bankers.” “if we ever forget we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”President Obama, what have you done?
    The war on the American people continues, the tools of war is terror, kill or be killed, wait for the next bomb to drop. Who caused this war and why? What is the product of government and what means will be justified? Common Cents?

    Joel Jarvi
    Bowlus MN, )not anymore)

    11.20.14

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  6. Quote:
    “Now I’m no fan of the widespread government, corporate, and financial abuses that abound today. But I know better than to romanticize the era you are describing. Its impressive advances came at a terrible price for a brutally subjugated working class whose every attempt to better their lot was met with officially condoned violence.”
    Globalism is taking us back to the good ole days at light speed. It seems the American worker just got to wealthy for the Oligarchs.

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  7. Pingback: The Reaction Wasn’t Joy, But Malicious Resentment | Mojave Desert Patriot

  8. Pingback: Daily Reading #11D | thinkpatriot

  9. I’ve long ago grown weary of those who admit to the monumental failings of big government central planning and wealth redistribution, but argue against capitalism because it isn’t perfect or it had some fits and starts in the initial stages of transition from preindustrial society. Capitalism isn’t perfect, even today, but it is hands down the best system for raising a population out of poverty and providing opportunity and wealth for all. The only criticisms against capitalism today are either mindless slogans by communist ideologues or legitimate criticisms of cronyism which is often mistakenly referred to as crony capitalism even though capitalism is fundamentally exclusive of cronyism. Socialists and communists have such weak arguments and deplorable historical records (death tolls in the tens of millions when applied on a large scale) that the best they can do is to point to the failures caused by socialist big government ills in America and conclude, “See? Capitalism doesn’t work.” Given the clear historical record, campaigning against capitalism is a crime against humanity.

    I try to imagine the heaven on earth we’d have if every human took the John Galt pledge: “I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

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  10. Reblogged this on The way I see things … and commented:
    Gore has a guest post on The Burning Platform and the greatest shortstory written in this decade!

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